The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditi

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1st Session: The Descent

Melody, ” Which Way to the Afterlife: The Rituals and Sacrifices Heroes Perform to Reach the Underworld”

Charles, “The Continuity of Gates within the Classical and Italian Traditions”

P.G., “Vergil as an Intermediary for the Classical and Italian Traditions of the Funeral and its Importance to the Soul”

 

 Conference Podcast One [46:44m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download

Classics 352B: The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditions is currently hosting a student conference on “The Afterlife: A Dead End or a Road to Somewhere?”

Stay tuned for podcasts of the papers presented; we will begin posting them sometime this week.

I thought I mentioned this in the post already but i didn’t ( I wrote it around midnight last night, please excuse me): I really liked the presentation, and very good points were made; my questions are only about Beatrice. Let the friendly forum debate begin!

During the discussion friday I was not wholly convinced that Beatrice was marginalized and “separate from God”. In her life she was quite well-to-do and married very well, therefore she was in the uppercrust of society thus it is unlikely that she was marginalized during her life on Earth. In the afterlife she is in the celestial rose, which is a symbol of divine love- thus, saved. Any soul that is saved is close to God because even if dante is seeing them in different levels in heaven, they are just examples of different ways to be saved. In the Catholic tradition, i believe, no one can be “more saved’ than someone else. I believe we’ve discussed before in class that In the Italian tradition there seems to be a democracy among the souls, unlike in the classical tradition. One must be careful not to get the epicurean idea of distant gods to get in the way.

In some ways I don’t even see Beatrice as a prophet, but moreso a messenger and interpreter of the complicated predictions. I may be wrong, but I couldn’t go on without expressing my hestitance to accept the ideas presented.

Congrats to a successful dialogue, Kathleen and Chester. I definitely agree with your overall theme of prophets being marginalized and that they neither can fit comfortably within regular mortals or gods

In relation with this, I found that it was interesting that in Oedipus Rex, Oedipus stated “but no living man can hope to force the gods to speak against their will” when the Chorus proposes that Phoebus (Apollo) should answer the riddle of the murder that he gave through his oracle at Delphi (I don’t actually have the lines since I have a print-out of the text). It is almost like a ploy technique to use prophets so that the Gods don’t have to directly answer the questions/orders they present (despite their knowledge of everything). It is true that the prophets are a tool/mouthpiece to provide the necessary information, but the information is sometimes unwanted (and as Professor Gosetti-Murrayjohn stated, they have no barrier or shield to block out disturbing knowledge), thus, the prophets are then marginalized as a result of their speaking truths that the community is abhorrent to hearing or is unable to understand. I guess I am getting at the fact that this marginalization is due to the will of the Gods, since it is within their power to punish mortals with forsight (take Cassandra for example, since Apollo made it so that no one would believe her, not matter the truth of her words), as well as (I think) it is within their power to make it so that the community of man could believe them.

Then again, if the Gods intervened with every single aspect of mortal life (as seen in the literature), there would be no sense of divine mystery (as a result of the distance created between the mortals and the gods) that the prophets could convey.

[Now with illustrations!]

Understanding societies of a different time and place is further complicated by the impossibility of “translating” culture and values between what one knows and what one is studying: some things have no simple parallels.

In Classical Athens, what many people think of as the most liberal polis of the era, women were very much marginalized. They were housed separately within living quarters, limited in their permission to be in public spaces, and absolutely devoid of political power. Certainly there are differences between how women were treated in different societies of that era, and within the legends and myths from that era, but we must note the differentiation between reality and fantasy. The powerful women from Homeric epic may have been acceptable as characters within an epic poem, and perhaps well loved in such a role, but do not mistake that as an acceptance of them into an actual society.

So, hopefully, I’ve established that within the Greek society, women were marginalized to begin with, despite being half the population.

Here’s a list of characteristics that marginalize the Sibyl and the Oracle:
Women. (i.e. Not a man.)
Having no father/husband.
Living in a cave (apart from society).
Powers of prophecy (only through possession by (usually male) gods).
Political clout (via men).

In the Latin tradition, many of these rules still apply, since the Aeneid is set in the ancient past, more within the time frame of the Homeric subjects than within early Imperial Rome.

I found the discussion on the messages of phropets being encrypted interesting. Personnaly it was good to see a differnt view. I have always just thought of the prophets being very straightforward in the classical tradition. In the Italian tradition I see the encription more especially with the allegories. GOOD JOb

I think that your discussion was interesting and was useful in a way of categorising prophets. However, I am not so sure on how I feel about the idea that since the sybl and the oracle of delphi were woman of power that that would set them apart from the community however very good job

Since I didn’t have the chance to write specific comments on every single midterm exam I graded, I thought it could be useful to come up with some general considerations on some of the central issues that came up in the exam, especially those I felt needed a little clarification.

On the relationship between the community and the deceased

It is undeniable that, compared to the Classical tradition, the Italian tradition assigns a less relevant role to funeral rites. One should however be careful to conclude that this deemphasizes or diminishes the role the community has, in the Italian tradition, in the successful transition of the deceased to the afterlife. If the role of the community appears to be lessened, it is because of the particularly strong tie, which the Italian tradition ushers in, between the deceased and God, which is what the examples of Manfred and Buonconte ultimately intend to underscore. This completely changes the ‘gravity’ of the deceased-community system, yet without diminishing any of the parameters. Indeed the crucial role of the community is supported by countless passages in Purgatorio, where the role of prayer for the deceased is constantly underscored, and where the process of purgation itself becomes a community business. One may say that the community is no longer crucial to the mere transition of the soul to the afterlife, yet it remains an essential part of the soul’s fulfillment in the afterlife. And that is indeed a big deal.

On topography and cosmology

The topography of the other world spells out the origins of the world itself. From Oceanus to Styx all the way to the mountain of purgatory, and at least the eight heavens that were known of in Dante’s time, the features of the other world in the Classical and Italian traditions are real geographical markers; for Dante, real astronomical markers too. That makes the other world a real place, albeit at times a vague place. It also makes the other world a place intimately connected with the history of mankind (we have spoken of the 5 ages of man in Hesiod, Ovid, Daniel and Dante). Thus, we may say that the other world in both the Classical and Italian traditions is made of meaningful cosmological signs.
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