Comments for The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditi http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org Just another UMW Blogs.org weblog Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:56:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 Comment on Conference Podcast 6 by Best Paper Awards at The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditions http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/12/conference-podcast-6/#comment-98 Best Paper Awards at The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditions Fri, 09 May 2008 19:30:23 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/12/conference-podcast-6/#comment-98 [...] « Conference Podcast 5 Conference Podcast 6 [...] [...] « Conference Podcast 5 Conference Podcast 6 [...]

]]> Comment on Thoughts on Predestination by Federico http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/03/57/#comment-165 Federico Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:51:53 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/03/57/#comment-165 Jessica, you are tackling one knotty question, not only of the Commedia, but of Christian theology as a whole. Your discussion is well informed, refers to all the crucial passages in the Commedia, and your reading of these passages is solid. Brava! So what is Dante telling us? That God's ways, although mysterious, do have a rationale, which in turn is even more mysterious. So, when facing God, man is facing what we may call a mystery to the square. Dante in otherworld is laying out a rationale for God's actions based on PROVIDENCE and PREDESTINATION, while quickly making it VERY clear that grasping that rationale is beyond man's capability. So what we do know is that we can’t know. But this is not a cop-out for simpletons; on the contrary it is all meant to place the due emphasis on FAITH, as the anaphoric use of the word “believe” in the passage you quote clearly indicates. “I can see that, since you speak of them, you do believe these things but cannot see how they may be; and thus, though you believe them, they are hidden.” Faith is Dante's only response to the failure of reason to reconcile PROVIDENCE, PREDESTINATION and FREE WILL. Faith as acceptance of the intrinsic limitations of the human mind; and, at the same time, as Saint Augustine said, the only way to attempt to overcome such limitations: "intellige ut credas, crede ut intelligas." Your parallel with the Classical tradition is interesting, but I believe needs a little clarification. There is indeed the will of the gods, which you are referring to in your quote from the Odyssey. We also have seen how much grief Juno’s wrath is causing to Aeneas and his companions. But this aspect of the god's will is not really mysterious at all. On the other hand when you are referring to the tragic world of Oedipus, you are really talking about something that is indeed beyond the realm of the will of the gods: namely DESTINY or FATUM, to use a better word – the mysterious force that moves man to what is usually its inescapable tragic destiny. Although mysterious and removed from human understanding, FATUM is, however, definitely not the means through which an all-mighty, and most importantly saving God mysteriously guides the actions of man to salvaton. In this respect there clearly is a huge difference between the two traditions. Jessica, you are tackling one knotty question, not only of the Commedia, but of Christian theology as a whole. Your discussion is well informed, refers to all the crucial passages in the Commedia, and your reading of these passages is solid. Brava! So what is Dante telling us? That God’s ways, although mysterious, do have a rationale, which in turn is even more mysterious. So, when facing God, man is facing what we may call a mystery to the square. Dante in otherworld is laying out a rationale for God’s actions based on PROVIDENCE and PREDESTINATION, while quickly making it VERY clear that grasping that rationale is beyond man’s capability. So what we do know is that we can’t know. But this is not a cop-out for simpletons; on the contrary it is all meant to place the due emphasis on FAITH, as the anaphoric use of the word “believe” in the passage you quote clearly indicates. “I can see that, since you speak of them, you do believe these things but cannot see how they may be; and thus, though you believe them, they are hidden.” Faith is Dante’s only response to the failure of reason to reconcile PROVIDENCE, PREDESTINATION and FREE WILL. Faith as acceptance of the intrinsic limitations of the human mind; and, at the same time, as Saint Augustine said, the only way to attempt to overcome such limitations: “intellige ut credas, crede ut intelligas.”
Your parallel with the Classical tradition is interesting, but I believe needs a little clarification. There is indeed the will of the gods, which you are referring to in your quote from the Odyssey. We also have seen how much grief Juno’s wrath is causing to Aeneas and his companions. But this aspect of the god’s will is not really mysterious at all. On the other hand when you are referring to the tragic world of Oedipus, you are really talking about something that is indeed beyond the realm of the will of the gods: namely DESTINY or FATUM, to use a better word – the mysterious force that moves man to what is usually its inescapable tragic destiny. Although mysterious and removed from human understanding, FATUM is, however, definitely not the means through which an all-mighty, and most importantly saving God mysteriously guides the actions of man to salvaton. In this respect there clearly is a huge difference between the two traditions.

]]> Comment on Third Conference Podcast by Best Paper Awards at The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditions http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/01/third-conference-podcast/#comment-160 Best Paper Awards at The Afterlife in the Classical and Italian Traditions Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:48:40 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/01/third-conference-podcast/#comment-160 [...] Midori, “‘The Muses Tread Not Silently’: The Tradition of Music in the Otherworldly” [...] [...] Midori, “‘The Muses Tread Not Silently’: The Tradition of Music in the Otherworldly” [...]

]]> Comment on Technical difficulties, I think by Angela http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/02/technical-difficulties-i-think/#comment-162 Angela Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:34:39 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/02/technical-difficulties-i-think/#comment-162 Thanks W. Our ITS has been looking into it. Thanks W. Our ITS has been looking into it.

]]> Comment on Thoughts on Predestination by Angela http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/03/57/#comment-164 Angela Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:31:28 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/03/57/#comment-164 Thank you for your very nice comments, Jessica. Why don't you give this post a title? Thank you for your very nice comments, Jessica. Why don’t you give this post a title?

]]> Comment on Technical difficulties, I think by Midori http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/02/technical-difficulties-i-think/#comment-161 Midori Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:31:31 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/02/technical-difficulties-i-think/#comment-161 Thanks Wynn! Thanks Wynn!

]]> Comment on Response to the last dialogue by Midori http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/02/response-to-the-last-dialogue/#comment-163 Midori Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:30:32 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/12/02/response-to-the-last-dialogue/#comment-163 "If you follow the idea that Dante’s katabatic experience is a dream, then you can also see how he believed people would be more likely to do the right thing if they were presented with a horrible image of what happened to those who did not. It is the horror of what will happen to him in inferno if he does not return to the path of God that helps push him in the correct direction." --I definitely agree with this statement, since I think it makes sense. It is like telling children stories with a moral at the end. The children may be frightened by the bogey-man, but if they does what mom tells them to do, the bogey-man won't get them. Well, that sounded quite juvenile and degrading to what Dante was trying to get at, but I think you can kind of understand what I am getting at? Thanks for the discussion on our dialogue, Kathleen. “If you follow the idea that Dante’s katabatic experience is a dream, then you can also see how he believed people would be more likely to do the right thing if they were presented with a horrible image of what happened to those who did not. It is the horror of what will happen to him in inferno if he does not return to the path of God that helps push him in the correct direction.”

–I definitely agree with this statement, since I think it makes sense. It is like telling children stories with a moral at the end. The children may be frightened by the bogey-man, but if they does what mom tells them to do, the bogey-man won’t get them. Well, that sounded quite juvenile and degrading to what Dante was trying to get at, but I think you can kind of understand what I am getting at?

Thanks for the discussion on our dialogue, Kathleen.

]]> Comment on First Conference Podcast by Angela http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/11/28/first-conference-podcast/#comment-159 Angela Tue, 28 Nov 2006 19:28:55 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/11/28/first-conference-podcast/#comment-159 Really nice sound, Martha--thanks! Really nice sound, Martha–thanks!

]]> Comment on Sibyl: (Not a!) Man, she sure was weird. (A Women in Antiquity Digression) by Angela http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/11/11/sibyl-not-a-man-she-sure-was-weird-a-women-in-antiquity-digression/#comment-155 Angela Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:59:23 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/11/11/sibyl-not-a-man-she-sure-was-weird-a-women-in-antiquity-digression/#comment-155 Love the illustrations, W.! And thanks for pointing out "enthusiastic" nature of the priestess "entheos"-=a god within "enthousiazdo": to be inspired or possessed by a god "enthousiastikos": divinely inspired Read Plato's Ion if you're interested!!! Love the illustrations, W.!

And thanks for pointing out “enthusiastic” nature of the priestess

“entheos”-=a god within
“enthousiazdo”: to be inspired or possessed by a god
“enthousiastikos”: divinely inspired

Read Plato’s Ion if you’re interested!!!

]]> Comment on Prophets as Tools by Angela http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/11/12/prophets-as-tools/#comment-158 Angela Mon, 20 Nov 2006 21:52:33 +0000 http://afterlife06.umwblogs.org/2006/11/12/prophets-as-tools/#comment-158 I think you are both onto something interesting here, which is the ambivalence of prophecy--is it a gift or a curse? As you both point out, Cassandra was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo (let's not forget that the god's voice penetrates her whole body--there is something very sensual about this, even if she remained a perpetual virgin), but upon her rejection of his amorous pursuits, Apollo gave her the punishment that no one would believe her. The story of Cassandra has parallels to Sibyl, another of Apollo's unlucky female object of pursuits, to whom he gave the gift of eternal life and the punishment of no eternal youth to accompany it. Tiresias, however, was struck blind by Hera, enraged by T.'s assessment of female sexuality; Zeus gave him prophecy as recompense. One thing that one might notice is the gendered nature of this ambivalence. The prophetesses of Apollo refused A.'s sexual advances, so now they are possessed by him completely. Their whole bodies are filled up with the god. Tiresias, by contrast, sees though he is blind and has some control over the process of revelation. Though he does not wish to reveal that which he knows to Oedipus, and though he ultimately does reveal because he must, he reveals much more slowly, cautiously, and in stychomachia (i.e., through dialogue) rather than as an outburst. Tiresias has control over language--the Sibyl does not. Cassandra does not. I think you are both onto something interesting here, which is the ambivalence of prophecy–is it a gift or a curse?

As you both point out, Cassandra was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo (let’s not forget that the god’s voice penetrates her whole body–there is something very sensual about this, even if she remained a perpetual virgin), but upon her rejection of his amorous pursuits, Apollo gave her the punishment that no one would believe her. The story of Cassandra has parallels to Sibyl, another of Apollo’s unlucky female object of pursuits, to whom he gave the gift of eternal life and the punishment of no eternal youth to accompany it.

Tiresias, however, was struck blind by Hera, enraged by T.’s assessment of female sexuality; Zeus gave him prophecy as recompense.

One thing that one might notice is the gendered nature of this ambivalence. The prophetesses of Apollo refused A.’s sexual advances, so now they are possessed by him completely. Their whole bodies are filled up with the god.

Tiresias, by contrast, sees though he is blind and has some control over the process of revelation. Though he does not wish to reveal that which he knows to Oedipus, and though he ultimately does reveal because he must, he reveals much more slowly, cautiously, and in stychomachia (i.e., through dialogue) rather than as an outburst. Tiresias has control over language–the Sibyl does not. Cassandra does not.

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